Discussion:
What really happened at Red Mountain?
(too old to reply)
j***@internetmailing.net
2006-09-13 03:50:29 UTC
Permalink
As you explore Morrowind and follow the early parts of the main quest,
you realise that something that happened at Red Mountain ages ago,
which set up the current story-line (the return of Nerevar). But what
"really happened" at Red Mountain? The books you get are confusing and
contradictory.

I think the game-makers erred by not having a clear plot outlining the
events at Red Mountain. Various books could still have been written
from various points of view, but without all the confusion of having
too many contradictory events.

There's a very brave attempt to sort out the "real" events on
http://til.gamingsource.net/fsg/sindervelvinarticle1.shtml but of
course others would have their own interpretations of what may have
happened.

Julie
DeAnn
2006-09-13 08:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@internetmailing.net
As you explore Morrowind and follow the early parts of the main quest,
you realise that something that happened at Red Mountain ages ago,
which set up the current story-line (the return of Nerevar). But what
"really happened" at Red Mountain? The books you get are confusing and
contradictory.
I think the game-makers erred by not having a clear plot outlining the
events at Red Mountain. Various books could still have been written
from various points of view, but without all the confusion of having
too many contradictory events.
There's a very brave attempt to sort out the "real" events on
http://til.gamingsource.net/fsg/sindervelvinarticle1.shtml but of
course others would have their own interpretations of what may have
happened.
Julie
I think the game makers were trying to be realistic in presenting the
conflicting views. At a trial, for example, you may hear widely
differing testimony that is in great contradiction. Everyone tells a
different story--a very different story--and there are few points
anyone agrees on. Not only do people see things differently, their
publicity agent side wants things to be remembered and recorded
differently. The victor writes the history books.

Personally, I take most credence in the Nord's account of the battle.
Vivec, Sotha Sil and Almalexia took the tools of Kragnorak and changed
a whole race of people into people who would treat them as gods. They
had a lot at stake for twisting the world's view of what happened.
Coming up and saying 'hey, we just killed your beloved king and hero
Nerevar so that we could warp your bodies into these twisted dark
things and make you worship us." is hardly the news they wanted to
broadcast.

The Nords, on the other hand, came to recover their lost god and
failed.

I thought this aspect of the game was pretty well done. However, it is
so obscur...trying to sort through the fragments of accounts in books
and notes....that I played MW quite some time before I started trying
to track it down.
Jonathan Ellis
2006-09-13 22:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeAnn
Post by j***@internetmailing.net
As you explore Morrowind and follow the early parts of the main quest,
you realise that something that happened at Red Mountain ages ago,
which set up the current story-line (the return of Nerevar). But what
"really happened" at Red Mountain? The books you get are confusing and
contradictory.
I think the game-makers erred by not having a clear plot outlining the
events at Red Mountain. Various books could still have been
written
Post by DeAnn
Post by j***@internetmailing.net
from various points of view, but without all the confusion of having
too many contradictory events.
There's a very brave attempt to sort out the "real" events on
http://til.gamingsource.net/fsg/sindervelvinarticle1.shtml but of
course others would have their own interpretations of what may have
happened.
Julie
I think the game makers were trying to be realistic in presenting the
conflicting views. At a trial, for example, you may hear widely
differing testimony that is in great contradiction. Everyone tells a
different story--a very different story--and there are few points
anyone agrees on. Not only do people see things differently, their
publicity agent side wants things to be remembered and recorded
differently. The victor writes the history books.
Personally, I take most credence in the Nord's account of the
battle.
Post by DeAnn
Vivec, Sotha Sil and Almalexia took the tools of Kragnorak and
changed
Post by DeAnn
a whole race of people into people who would treat them as gods.
They
Post by DeAnn
had a lot at stake for twisting the world's view of what happened.
Coming up and saying 'hey, we just killed your beloved king and hero
Nerevar so that we could warp your bodies into these twisted dark
things and make you worship us." is hardly the news they wanted to
broadcast.
The Nords, on the other hand, came to recover their lost god and
failed.
I thought this aspect of the game was pretty well done. However, it is
so obscur...trying to sort through the fragments of accounts in books
and notes....that I played MW quite some time before I started
trying
Post by DeAnn
to track it down.
I like the fact that there are lots of conflicting accounts,
especially from different factions, and nobody seems to have been
quite sure who was on whose side. Or, indeed, if there was not, in
fact, MORE than one battle at Red Mountain, perhaps mere days apart.

The Nordic version seems to think that Nerevar's faction of Dunmer and
Dumac's faction of Dwemer were still allied with each other, against
the Nords, and that Nerevar's three lieutenants played no part in
Nerevar's death but ascribe most of the blame to Dagoth (and possibly
Kagrenac/Kragnorak) for betraying all sides after promising to ally
with them. However, their account of the later stages seems confused -
possibly consistent with the fact that, if there was more than one
battle at Red Mountain, the Nordic forces were slaughtered in the
first battle, either openly opposed or secretly betrayed by all sides,
and played no part in any subsequent events.

Some of the old Dwemer literature suggests that Dumac Dwarf-king
wanted to retain his alliance with Nerevar of the Dunmer (or possibly
they were still Chi-mer then), and was genuinely unaware of Kagrenac's
plans which seem to have been kind of confused between creating a god,
becoming a god, and absorbing his entire race into the artificial god
of his creation: but that Nerevar mistrusted Dumac because of
Kagrenac's dealings (possibly told to him in truth by Dagoth, who may
well have been spying for both sides), and that this mistrust led to
war between the races.

As for how Nerevar died: The Nords blame it on the artificial god and
the betrayal of all sides by Dagoth. The Tribunal Temple say, he died
in battle - either with Dumac, or Dagoth, or both (supporting the
theory that there was in fact more than one battle there). Either he
received his mortal wound from Dumac, and his Tribunal lieutenants
were forced to take the field against Dagoth in a subsequent battle
(and defeat him), or else Nerevar himself fought Dagoth and was
wounded even more severely, and later died.

The theory that the Tribunal themselves *murdered* Nerevar to set
themselves up as gods seems to be a minority one. I personally do NOT
think it is the true version: more likely a product of the suspicion
that must inevitably be engendered, when it turns out that the worst
enemy comes from within - that the worst enemy of all Dunmer/Chimer
was not the entirely foreign Nords, nor even the ancestral Dwemer foe,
but one of their own kind, Dagoth-Ur. Nor, I believe, is this theory
supported by Vivec's own conduct after the battle: he seems to be the
only one of the Tribunal that has actually remained true to the duty
of guarding the Ghostfence, after Sotha Sil has withdrawn entirely
into his clockwork world and Almalexia given in to despair and
madness. Vivec's intentions seem to be good - although he has become
not so much evil as weak: I cannot believe he is a murderer, even
though he has become so weak and detached from his own Temple as to
allow them to become not far short of tyrannical. He has even chosen a
similar person - good, but weak - as his Archbishop: Saryoni, who
cannot control the Ordinators.

No, what he - and the Tribunal - betrayed is Nerevar's memory and
ideals. Evidently Nerevar, while dying (either from battling Dumac, or
the created Akulakhan which was destroyed leaving only its Heart
intact, or possibly Dagoth-Ur) told his Tribunal lieutenants to ensure
that the Heart was *destroyed* - and they did not do so, but took its
power for themselves, setting themselves up as gods (and in the
process, having to rewrite history to exaggerate their own
contributions towards uniting the Dunmer, and reduce Nerevar's, making
it seem as if he was the servant rather than the leader of the
Tribunal.)

Who knows. It may even be that the Nordic account is the truest, where
Dagoth allied with all sides and betrayed them all right from the
start: and that Dumac finally discovered Kagrenac's own treachery and
opposed it at the last minute, standing alongside Nerevar rather than
fighting against him, and that both Dwemer and Chi/Dunmer were split
into two factions in the greatest battle, although all opposed the
Nords. Of course it suits the Dunmer now to say that *all* the Dwemer
opposed them - who is left that could contradict that story? Only
Vivec. And to have, in the "official" version of the story, the Dwemer
split into factions as well, would only raise more questions. Better
to treat them more like the Nords, as a "foreign" enemy.
Huevos
2006-09-14 03:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Regarding the books and their various accounts... Is there anywhere to read
them other than on screen? I have a hard time reading them in the format on
screen.

Also, I find it awefully tedious to get through the ones that are written in
jibberish (well intentionally really goofy writing at least). So are there
any recommendations to books or series of books that are particularly
worthwhile and/or written in at least 6th grade English?

Thanks!
Data Banks
2006-09-14 03:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huevos
Regarding the books and their various accounts... Is there anywhere to
read them other than on screen? I have a hard time reading them in the
format on screen.
Also, I find it awefully tedious to get through the ones that are written
in jibberish (well intentionally really goofy writing at least). So are
there any recommendations to books or series of books that are
particularly worthwhile and/or written in at least 6th grade English?
Thanks!
The Imperial Library
http://til.gamingsource.net/

Has books from most of TES games, I think. Hope that helps (helped me!)
Darin Johnson
2006-09-14 04:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
I like the fact that there are lots of conflicting accounts,
especially from different factions, and nobody seems to have been
quite sure who was on whose side. Or, indeed, if there was not, in
fact, MORE than one battle at Red Mountain, perhaps mere days apart.
I looked at some of the "what really happened" theories, and
they seem to fall into traps easily. All the information
given in Morrowind on the subject has to be distrusted in some
degree. Most of it is propaganda, some is based on conspiracy
theories, etc. Only the people who were actually there and
could see what happened would know the truth; all the rest is
conjecture or legend passed down through oral histories.
The real witnesses are undoubtedly not telling the truth;
it's probably even likely that the Tribunal believe their own
propaganda after centuries of repeating it.

Not even Azura knows what really happened, since the Daedra are
not presented as omniscient in the game. But even if the information
she gives the player is to be trusted, there's not enough of it to
fill in the gaps. The accounts that touch upon the big questions
(who killed Nerevar, what happened to the Dwemer, etc), and which
involve people who were there and not just legends, are all suspect.

I wouldn't be suprised if the way this worked is that someone
at Bethesda wrote up a few sentences of vague information, then
handed this to several developers and said "make an in-game book
out of this" in order to ensure a suitably vague set of
contradictory accounts.

Here are some questions & observations:

- Why did Nerevar leave Red Mountain without Dagoth? Most
accounts agree that he left Dagoth behind to keep watch
over the Kagrenac's tools. This makes no sense though,
especially if Nerevar was wounded and it was just the pair
of them (and probably the shield bearer as well). Before
I found the instruments I had assumed they were massive
tools that could not be easily moved and needed a guard
(in case the Dwemer poofed back into existence), but then
later they turned out to be quite mobile.

- Several accounts seem to indicate that Nerevar knew that the
Dwemer had all vanished. But he only saw just a few Dwemer
disappear, and had no way of knowing what was happening on the
surface or that the battles were even over. This sounds like
stories written in an "after the fact" manner.

- There could have easily been more than two sides in the battle.
They Nords might have been fighting both the Dwemer and Dunmer,
trying to retrieve the heart for themselves (three way battles
make for poor propaganda). The Dunmer victors would then
easily mistake the situation by assuming that the Nords must
have been allied with their other enemies.

- The "Poison Song" books are clearly intended to be treated
as fiction within the game, and not historical accounts
or even contemporary fiction. It seems odd that these show
up in the list of accounts of what happened.

- It's clear that Dagoth Ur believes that Nerevar betrayed him
and struck him. That's the most logical assertion that can
be made in the whole mess. I could go out on a limb and say
that Dagoth was delusional about it, but logic dictates that
the game developers probably aren't pulling a fast one on us.
So we can assume Nerevar turned on Dagoth for some reason.

- There doesn't seem to have been nearly enough time for Dagoth
Ur to have experimented with the tools enough to have attempted
to use them and be corrupted by them, as the accounts seems to
indicate. Dagoth wasn't a scholar or wizard.

- One theory (not born out by any facts) is that just mere presence
around the heart of Lorkhan affected Dagoth and corrupted him.
It would explain why all the accounts of "mortal wounds" weren't
fatal (for Nerevar either) and why his vampire kin can be
resurrected also. Centuries of sleeping near it had affected
Dagoth Ur to the point that he had mystical powers and could
tap into the heart's power without having the three tools in
his possession.
It's possible that Nerevar was also slightly corrupted by this.

- A better theory about Dagoth's corruption is that hey put on
Wraithguard without knowing anything about it. The "alternate"
storyline in the game indicates that this artifact has to be
"tuned" to the wearer or damage results. So maybe just putting
it on drove Dagoth mad.

- The Ashlander theory that Nerevar was poisoned has to be
discounted completely for lack of evidence. This clearly
sounds like conspiracy theory thinking. If he had been
poisoned, how could anyone have possibly known, and how
could they have known who the culprit was?

- Kagrenac and Dagoth Ur seem to have a somewhat skewed plans for
their creations. They both wanted to create a god that would
serve as a military and political tool. One that they could
control as a puppet. It just seems a bit odd to me.

--
Darin Johnson
DeAnn
2006-09-14 09:34:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darin Johnson
- Why did Nerevar leave Red Mountain without Dagoth? Most
accounts agree that he left Dagoth behind to keep watch
over the Kagrenac's tools. This makes no sense though,
especially if Nerevar was wounded and it was just the pair
of them (and probably the shield bearer as well). Before
I found the instruments I had assumed they were massive
tools that could not be easily moved and needed a guard
(in case the Dwemer poofed back into existence), but then
later they turned out to be quite mobile.
If Nerevar thought the tools were very dangerous (as he might
if he knew that one could instantly change a whole race of people in
their use), trusted Dagoth and did not trust Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha
Sil, then he could well leave Dagoth to keep them until he could return
and help destroy the tools. Howevever, I personally tend to believe
the Nords account--which say that Nerevar and Dagoth were on opposite
sides, fighting each other--at the last battle. In this view, Dagoth
had betrayed Nerevar by bringing in the Nords to help fight against the
Dwemer (Nerevar and Dumac were allied and trying to bring peace, but
Dagoth/V/A/S were trying to keep the rift between Dwemer and Chimeri
active).
Post by Darin Johnson
- Several accounts seem to indicate that Nerevar knew that the
Dwemer had all vanished. But he only saw just a few Dwemer
disappear, and had no way of knowing what was happening on the
surface or that the battles were even over. This sounds like
stories written in an "after the fact" manner.
Going into the Mournhold underworld and seeing the little piles of
ashes where dwarves used to be made me realize that the accounts of the
Dwemer turning to dust and blowing away in the wind were likely
accurate. Anyone seeing several dwarves do this would certainly react
to the impressive facts--just as much as someone who'd seen hundreds or
thousands vanish.
Post by Darin Johnson
- There could have easily been more than two sides in the battle.
They Nords might have been fighting both the Dwemer and Dunmer,
trying to retrieve the heart for themselves (three way battles
make for poor propaganda). The Dunmer victors would then
easily mistake the situation by assuming that the Nords must
have been allied with their other enemies.
In the Five Songs of King Wulfruth indicate that Dagoth came to the
Nords to ask them to join in the battle (against the Dwemer because
V,A,S wanted to sunder the truce Nerevar had made with the Dwemer), but
then betrayed them.
Post by Darin Johnson
- The "Poison Song" books are clearly intended to be treated
as fiction within the game, and not historical accounts
or even contemporary fiction. It seems odd that these show
up in the list of accounts of what happened.
- It's clear that Dagoth Ur believes that Nerevar betrayed him
and struck him. That's the most logical assertion that can
be made in the whole mess. I could go out on a limb and say
that Dagoth was delusional about it, but logic dictates that
the game developers probably aren't pulling a fast one on us.
So we can assume Nerevar turned on Dagoth for some reason.
Uhm, maybe because Dagoth was trying to break up the peace Nerevar
was trying to make with the Dwarves and had brough the Nords in to help
the Chimeri fight the Dwemer?
Post by Darin Johnson
- There doesn't seem to have been nearly enough time for Dagoth
Ur to have experimented with the tools enough to have attempted
to use them and be corrupted by them, as the accounts seems to
indicate. Dagoth wasn't a scholar or wizard.
Dagoth seems to have worked the heart without the tools for a long
time. The Nords did not need the tools to work Shor's heart, after
all. However, Dagoth does not seem to have faired very well in his
efforts.
Post by Darin Johnson
- One theory (not born out by any facts) is that just mere presence
around the heart of Lorkhan affected Dagoth and corrupted him.
It would explain why all the accounts of "mortal wounds" weren't
fatal (for Nerevar either) and why his vampire kin can be
resurrected also. Centuries of sleeping near it had affected
Dagoth Ur to the point that he had mystical powers and could
tap into the heart's power without having the three tools in
his possession.
It's possible that Nerevar was also slightly corrupted by this.
From the Nords accounts, the heart was used to create and modify the
Nord race for a long time, then was stolen. It is an artifact of great
power that allows one to change the world around one, including making
whole people alter drastically (e.g. become Dark Elves instead of
Chimeri) and instantly. If not used wisely, such great power
presents....difficulties.
Post by Darin Johnson
- A better theory about Dagoth's corruption is that hey put on
Wraithguard without knowing anything about it. The "alternate"
storyline in the game indicates that this artifact has to be
"tuned" to the wearer or damage results. So maybe just putting
it on drove Dagoth mad.
- The Ashlander theory that Nerevar was poisoned has to be
discounted completely for lack of evidence. This clearly
sounds like conspiracy theory thinking. If he had been
poisoned, how could anyone have possibly known, and how
could they have known who the culprit was?
There are quite a few references to Vivec Black Hands and indications
that Vivec poisoned Nerevar. Alas, I cannot cite them from memory.
Post by Darin Johnson
- Kagrenac and Dagoth Ur seem to have a somewhat skewed plans for
their creations. They both wanted to create a god that would
serve as a military and political tool. One that they could
control as a puppet. It just seems a bit odd to me.
--
Darin Johnson
Darin Johnson
2006-09-14 20:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeAnn
In the Five Songs of King Wulfruth indicate that Dagoth came to the
Nords to ask them to join in the battle (against the Dwemer because
V,A,S wanted to sunder the truce Nerevar had made with the Dwemer), but
then betrayed them.
I think most of this account should be treated as unreliable. It's
an oral tradition about heroes and legends. You can trust it as
far as what their motivation probably was (recover the heart for
their god) and who they were fighting. It's good evidence that
they weren't allied with the Dwemer like other accounts imply.
But I don't think it's reliable about meeting with Dagoth or what
he wanted.
Post by DeAnn
Uhm, maybe because Dagoth was trying to break up the peace Nerevar
was trying to make with the Dwarves and had brough the Nords in to help
the Chimeri fight the Dwemer?
Dagoth sounds like he was probably a friend of Nerevar, but not a
major political or strategic player (was he the head of House Dagoth,
or just a member?). The way he talks to the character in the game
does not make it sound like he was involved in subversive political
dealings against Nerevar, and was just a trusted aide or lieutenant.
Ie, he was a nobody until the incidents under Red Mountain.
Post by DeAnn
Dagoth seems to have worked the heart without the tools for a long
time. The Nords did not need the tools to work Shor's heart, after
all. However, Dagoth does not seem to have faired very well in his
efforts.
He didn't have a long time to work on the heart or tools; maybe a
day at most. He didn't have access to the tools until Kagrenac
vanished, and so just the time it took for Nerevar to leave the
mountain and return with his generals (who were undoubtedly
nearby).

I don't think Dagoth faired well at all in his efforts; he was
corrupted and driven mad. It was the centuries of sleeping
and regenerating near the heart that changed him the most.

The Tribunal basically did yearly trips to the heart just to stand in
its presence and be renewed. Dagoth being in the same chamber
for a day probably has some profound effect. The heart was
essentially the magical equivalent of an unshielded nuclear reactor.

Everyone involved with the heart ended up insane to some degree.
Probably even Nerevar (why not?).
Post by DeAnn
From the Nords accounts, the heart was used to create and modify the
Nord race for a long time, then was stolen.
The Nord account I read had Lorkhan with the Nords with them trying
to retrieve his heart after finally being found. The "stolen" bit was
probably just a Nordic literary device
Post by DeAnn
There are quite a few references to Vivec Black Hands and indications
that Vivec poisoned Nerevar. Alas, I cannot cite them from memory.
But the point is that it is impossible to know the truth here. If
Vivec indeed poisoned Nerevar, how the hell would the Ashlanders
even know this? There was an aide (shield bearer) that was there
and later lived with the Ashlanders. But would this person have
seen anything? Was Vivec so absolutely clumsy that he mixed
poisons in the open, and things easily identified as poisons?

It sounds more like the Ashlanders mention poison because that's
the most foul and devious method of killing. So instead of the
Tribunal being merely betrayers, this turns them into vile and
despicable betrayers who have abandoned the old honorable traditions.

--
Darin Johnson
ManaUser
2006-09-14 23:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darin Johnson
But the point is that it is impossible to know the truth here. If
Vivec indeed poisoned Nerevar, how the hell would the Ashlanders
even know this?
Maybe Azura told them. Don't forget that the Ashlanders also knew
Nerevar would return, which was apparently was correct.
--
Remove "banana" from my address to reply.
Jonathan Ellis
2006-09-15 11:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
In the Five Songs of King Wulfruth indicate that Dagoth came to the
Nords to ask them to join in the battle (against the Dwemer
because
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
V,A,S wanted to sunder the truce Nerevar had made with the
Dwemer), but
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
then betrayed them.
I think most of this account should be treated as unreliable. It's
an oral tradition about heroes and legends. You can trust it as
far as what their motivation probably was (recover the heart for
their god) and who they were fighting. It's good evidence that
they weren't allied with the Dwemer like other accounts imply.
But I don't think it's reliable about meeting with Dagoth or what
he wanted.
Well, it's possible that Dagoth was indeed playing as a spy. If he was
loyal to Nerevar at the time, it would have been in Nerevar's
interests to break the Dwemer/Nord alliance. If he was *not* loyal to
Nerevar but knew of the Heart already and wanted it himself, he
certainly didn't want either Nords or Dwemer getting it, and would
have figured that his own best chance was to be entrusted with it by a
victorious Nerevar. And it would also not be in his interest to have
the Nerevar/Dumac alliance restored.
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
Uhm, maybe because Dagoth was trying to break up the peace
Nerevar
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
was trying to make with the Dwarves and had brough the Nords in to help
the Chimeri fight the Dwemer?
Dagoth sounds like he was probably a friend of Nerevar, but not a
major political or strategic player (was he the head of House
Dagoth,
Post by Darin Johnson
or just a member?). The way he talks to the character in the game
does not make it sound like he was involved in subversive political
dealings against Nerevar, and was just a trusted aide or lieutenant.
Ie, he was a nobody until the incidents under Red Mountain.
Unlikely. The fact of his presence in the chamber indicates that he
was trusted enough to be important. Almost certainly he was indeed the
leader of his own House, close in Nerevar's councils, and one of his
*most* trusted minions.
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
Dagoth seems to have worked the heart without the tools for a long
time. The Nords did not need the tools to work Shor's heart, after
all. However, Dagoth does not seem to have faired very well in his
efforts.
He didn't have a long time to work on the heart or tools; maybe a
day at most. He didn't have access to the tools until Kagrenac
vanished, and so just the time it took for Nerevar to leave the
mountain and return with his generals (who were undoubtedly
nearby).
Nevertheless, I would believe he was a very powerful sorcerer.
Possibly greater and wiser than Sotha Sil. Maybe wiser than Kagrenac,
and thus able to avoid his own destruction and give himself enough
immortality to survive a subsequent "mortal" wound. And yes, almost
certainly go mad, if he was not half-mad already, and be corrupted if
he was not corrupt already. The Heart of Lorkhan is an artifact of a
fallen, corrupt and possibly mad god, after all...
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
There are quite a few references to Vivec Black Hands and
indications
Post by Darin Johnson
Post by DeAnn
that Vivec poisoned Nerevar. Alas, I cannot cite them from
memory.
Post by Darin Johnson
But the point is that it is impossible to know the truth here. If
Vivec indeed poisoned Nerevar, how the hell would the Ashlanders
even know this? There was an aide (shield bearer) that was there
and later lived with the Ashlanders. But would this person have
seen anything? Was Vivec so absolutely clumsy that he mixed
poisons in the open, and things easily identified as poisons?
In any case, even murdering Nerevar would be nothing at all compared
to the far greater crime - betraying his memory, the ideals he stood
for (a united Chimer race, paying due respect and worship to the
Daedra gods, especially Azura who seems to be the only wholly "good"
one), using Kagrenac's tools to seize power and even godhood for
themselves instead of respecting Nerevar's wishes that the Heart
should not be used at all, and should be destroyed if possible. Once
the Tribunal had done that, it almost no longer matters *who* killed
Nerevar - whether it was the Tribunal themselves, or whether he never
made a full recovery from his injuries in the Dwemer war and suffered
further injuries in the subsequent battle with Dagoth. He is dead: and
the curse on the Chimer that turned them into Dunmer came from the
seizing of power by Vivec, Sotha Sil and Almalexia. Whether Vivec
actually poisoned or stabbed Nerevar is irrelevant - he has much more
surely "murdered" him by betraying his memory and his legacy, and
subsequently usurping his place in the history books by promoting a
version of "history" in which Nerevar was the champion of the Tribunal
(and thus, by implication, subordinate to them, rather than being
their leader.)

Jonathan.
Huevos
2006-09-15 02:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Ellis
I like the fact that there are lots of conflicting accounts,
<CUT long well thought out discussion of different viewpoints>
Wow... You guys really give Bethesda a lot of credit. I chalk a lot of it up
to team writing with limited editorial review.

But your way IS more fun!
ManaUser
2006-09-15 15:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huevos
Post by Jonathan Ellis
I like the fact that there are lots of conflicting accounts,
<CUT long well thought out discussion of different viewpoints>
Wow... You guys really give Bethesda a lot of credit. I chalk a lot of it up
to team writing with limited editorial review.
But your way IS more fun!
I hung out on the official forums alot (before the moderators got so
draconian) and from the posts the devs made it was quite clear that they
did this kind of thing intentionally. Of course giving contradicting
accounts and never quite spelling thigns out *also* makes a great cover
story if you slip up, and they weren't afraid to take advantage of it.
--
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Data Banks
2006-09-17 04:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by ManaUser
Post by Huevos
Post by Jonathan Ellis
I like the fact that there are lots of conflicting accounts,
<CUT long well thought out discussion of different viewpoints>
Wow... You guys really give Bethesda a lot of credit. I chalk a lot of it
up to team writing with limited editorial review.
But your way IS more fun!
I hung out on the official forums alot (before the moderators got so
draconian) and from the posts the devs made it was quite clear that they
did this kind of thing intentionally. Of course giving contradicting
accounts and never quite spelling thigns out *also* makes a great cover
story if you slip up, and they weren't afraid to take advantage of it.
It also adds a little realism - since when was history "clear-cut" in the
real world? There's always the official history, but after that you have
hundreds of differing viewpoints. Some wildly different, others only
differing to a small degree in a few points. Fact of life with humnas - we
all see life differently :) Keeps it interesting
j***@internetmailing.net
2006-09-19 01:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Thanks everyone, for contributing so much to this thread, and sharing
such a wealth of ideas and explanations. After studying it all, it does
indeed seem like there is no official story of "what really happened"
and that someone working for Bethesda said "Here are a few basic
"facts", weave it into a story" and everyone wrote a somewhat different
story.

Julie
Post by Data Banks
Post by ManaUser
Post by Huevos
Post by Jonathan Ellis
I like the fact that there are lots of conflicting accounts,
<CUT long well thought out discussion of different viewpoints>
Wow... You guys really give Bethesda a lot of credit. I chalk a lot of it
up to team writing with limited editorial review.
But your way IS more fun!
I hung out on the official forums alot (before the moderators got so
draconian) and from the posts the devs made it was quite clear that they
did this kind of thing intentionally. Of course giving contradicting
accounts and never quite spelling thigns out *also* makes a great cover
story if you slip up, and they weren't afraid to take advantage of it.
It also adds a little realism - since when was history "clear-cut" in the
real world? There's always the official history, but after that you have
hundreds of differing viewpoints. Some wildly different, others only
differing to a small degree in a few points. Fact of life with humnas - we
all see life differently :) Keeps it interesting
ManaUser
2006-09-13 16:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@internetmailing.net
I think the game-makers erred by not having a clear plot outlining the
events at Red Mountain. Various books could still have been written
from various points of view, but without all the confusion of having
too many contradictory events.
I disagree, I think it's cool that they left it for us to figure out.
Clear plots aren't nearly as interesting, plus this way we (or rather
our characters) can believe whichever version seems most attractive.
Post by j***@internetmailing.net
There's a very brave attempt to sort out the "real" events on
http://til.gamingsource.net/fsg/sindervelvinarticle1.shtml but of
course others would have their own interpretations of what may have
happened.
Which isn't to say attempts like this to piece together the "real storY"
aren't entertaining.
--
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